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Apart from writing about
music, you also curated the Sonic Boom event... What was
your motivation to "take 90s post-techno, post-rave, post-ambient
art sound out of a restrictive club context"?
"In the 1970s, sound art was quite an exciting area
for discovery and innovation. I felt that, with some notable
exceptions, it lost a lot of its fire in the 1980s. Acid
house, techno and hip-hop inspired a whole new generation
of sound experimentalists who began by being happy within
a loosely-defined context of dance music. As the club scene
became more commercialised and the musical experimentation
became more radical, the dance context seemed to make less
sense. I believe that this is one of the reasons why a number
of these musicians have moved into sound art. An art gallery
may not be the perfect environment, but sound art can transform
a gallery into a more social and dynamic space than we normally
expect and it allows musicians to create pieces that explore
the properties of sound in space more fully. The time base
is more open, too. Somebody who wants to spend five hours listening
to a piece can do so. "
Were you pleased with your
book 'Exotica: Fabricated Soundscapes in a Real World'? Your
colleague at 'The Wire' Ken Hollings was rather tough on you in his review, indicating that the book
didn't go anywhere and you were ambivalent about your subject
matter. Care to respond?
"Yes, I was pleased with 'Exotica'. I wouldn't have delivered
it to the publishers if I wasn't, though that doesn't mean
I think it's perfect. As a critic, I believe criticism -
both negative and positive - is something you have to accept,
recognise but not take too seriously. The only aspect of
the 'Wire' review that annoyed me was his personal comment
about my worry that I might be playing more Les Baxter to
my daughter than was good for her. That was a joke and his
humourless response was rather patronising. But that aside,
I don't care if he thinks the book goes nowhere. 'Exotica'
was deliberately designed to go "nowhere", in the sense
that linear narrative leading to a climactic conclusion
is a form we might expect from Hollywood movies in the 21st
century but not from a serious book about music. As for
ambivalence, how ridiculous to suggest that ambivalence
is equal to a lack of passion. Ambivalence is a prerequisite
of enjoying a musical form like exotica, for exactly the
reasons I make clear in the book."
You discuss in 'Exotica'
that after your wife's death, music became a source of irritation,
and you had a sharply increased intolerance for trivia.
It's not clear to me if 'Exotica' helped you overcome that.
More importantly, have you re-found your passion for music?
"Writing 'Exotica' was quite cathartic for me after experiencing
a tragic event and its aftermath. Naming a demon can help
to scare it away. My relationship to music has changed but
that's due to a number of reasons. My whole pattern of working
has changed. I deal in generalities more now, simply because
I don't have so much time for the details. As an example,
I can't even remember the titles of tracks on my own albums,
let alone anybody else's! I still love listening to music,
though, and I still feel open to new music. I suspect that
a lot of music writers are afraid to be honest about their
own relationship to the music they criticise. It's quite
healthy to hate it all, from time to time."
Although Sun Ra's jazz
reached out to a lot of areas, he clearly was hip to the
notion of applying the fictional tropicalia concept to
his music. This is most apparent in his late 50s/early 60s
and some of his later music. I personally think he was most
successful in this regard with 'The Future Sounds of Sun
Ra' (1961) and 'Somewhere Else' (1988). What do you think
of Sun Ra's music?
"Sun Ra was one of the most remarkable 20th century
musicians and I feel privileged to have met him, spoken
with him and to have seen him perform at the peak of his
creativity. His music was so broad and so visionary - breathtaking
in its scope."
Were Les Baxter and Martin
Denny Sun Ra's equals?
"That's an interesting question. Since I'm making comparisons
or links between musicians from such different worlds, I
raise the implicit question of criteria. It's a question
most people want to avoid, despite the evidence of their
own subjectivity is choosing between "good" and "bad". My
personal feeling is that Les Baxter is more interesting
than Martin Denny, even though he did some truly appaling
work, because he's less formulaic, more adventurous, more
ambitious. I think Sun Ra is more interesting than Les Baxter
for similar reasons. That doesn't have to make a hierarchy,
however, since each of them appeals to different emotional
criteria and value systems. Some plants are more interesting
than others but it doesn't make them better."
Although we haven't read
the book, we understand your colleague Ben Watson in his
book 'Art, Class & Cleavage: A Quantulumcunque Concerning
Materialist Esthetix' disses you and others as being part
of the proto-hegemonic proponents of easy listening and
whimsy: players in an impotent subversion. How do respond
to such criticism?
"My most determined critics are from 'The Wire'! Proto-hegemonic
is a bit of jargon which means nothing. Easy listening and
whimsy? Yes, but free improvisation, noise and all sorts
of other things as well. Even Frank Zappa occasionally.
What's his point? Does he know?"
You have also written a
book on hip-hop. The third part came out in 1999. How do
you feel about the current state of hip-hop? Somehow I got
the feeling you have lost some passion for rap along the
way. Or did I just get the wrong feeling when reading 'Rap
Attack #3'?
"No, I think you had the right feeling. I feel pretty
dispirited when I listen to a lot of current hip-hop, though
there are still artists who have something to say and who
do it within innovative musical settings and with motivations
other than personal wealth. To be honest, I listen to very
little recent hip-hop through choice. There's hardly any
American culture that interests me right now. I wonder why
."
You have been writing
about music from the early seventies. Not limiting yourself
to rock music but also focusing on - for example - Javanese gamelan.
Now most people don't even go beyond a subgenre of rock music.
I am interested in how you approach music in this pluralistic
way? Has your taste evolved over the years?
"My tastes have evolved over the years. For example,
I used to be prejudiced against country music but then I
discovered aspects of country that I could identify with
and I came to enjoy a lot of it. I fall out of love too.
But I have always listened to a wide range of music, ever
since I was in my early teens, so it feels natural, rather
than self-conscious. Humans have many personalities contained
within the subjective notion and social face of identity
and music expresses aspects of those personalities. Sometimes
you feel zen, sometimes you feel punk. "
I noticed you also made
a CD 'Museum of Fruit', although I haven't found it anywhere.
Can you tell us more about it? And will you be releasing
more records in the future?"
"'Museum of Fruit' was recorded at the request of Caipirinha
Music in New York. They have a series called 'Architettura'
- music inspired by contemporary buildings. I chose Itsuko
Hasegawa's Museum of Fruit in Hasagawa, Japan. This was
partly because I liked her ideas in general and partly because
the building embodied certain ideas that I felt were present
in my music. It's a meeting of the organic and hi-tech.
I have a new album released on Scanner's
label 'Sulphur' - a collaboration with the science fiction
writer Jeff Noon. He has a new novel out called 'Needle
in the Groove' and the album mixes his reading with my music.
I have also composed the soundtrack to a Belgian CD-ROM
project called 'Mondophrenentic'. That will premiere in Brussels
quite soon and I hope that the music will be released as
a CD. "
http://www.kindamuzik.net/interview/david-toop/david-toop
Meer David Toop op KindaMuzik: http://www.kindamuzik.net/artiest/david-toop
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