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You've played the occasional festival on the European mainland. Do you find the audiences
different than back in England?
"They seem to be quieter. In Holland, I seem to remember them being, perhaps, a bit more
tentative, perhaps a bit more like the French audience in a way. Which is OK... It probably allows
us to do some songs that we wouldn't always play in Britain. That's the nice thing about travelling
around and playing and the nice thing about audiences changing. The thing is, audiences change even
within a country. You go through Germany, and the audiences change from town to town, let alone from
country to country. It's quite interesting how an audience can have a collective identity. It's
quite strange."
As Hefner were trying to break into the public consciousness, how important was it for you to
find yourself supported by the likes of [Radio 1 DJs] Steve Lamacq and John Peel?
"It was important, I think particularly in the case of John Peel, because he's been a part of
British radio for so long. That's particularly flattering, because you feel that that's quite a
yardstick to be judged by, with all of the other bands he plays. Yeah, it's important, and it's
really good. We obviously want as many people as possible to hear what we do. It's never a goal
though. It's never like we're writing a song and thinking that, 'I really hope that John Peel and
Steve Lamacq and the NME like it.' I think, as a matter of fact, that it's important to think the
complete opposite of that."
The last album, 'We Love the City', was a sort of musical tribute to London. How much of a
creative influence, both in terms of culture and the politics involved, is the city on you
musically?
"It's quite an influence, particularly your friends and what they do, just the things around
you... I think it's fairly natural that that would influence your songwriting. I guess also another
advantage in a way is the fact that the size of the band Hefner allows you to still have a lot of
friends who do normal jobs. Thank God that all of my friends don't work in the music industry! That
allows you to have anything: a phone call, a conversation you have with somebody in a shop...
Anything would influence you, as the way anybody's location and the things around them would
influence them. I'm sure my milkman delivers milk slightly differently, because he's influenced by
London. I guess it's less of an influence now, since doing that record. Since doing that record,
we've started to think of other things. I felt that before 'We Love the City' there had been some
albums written about London, and there had been some people, but I didn't think that it was
something that had been overdone. I didn't feel that there was an abundance of albums about London
out there. Now we've done that, I guess it's less of an influence. Perhaps now I'm starting to think
of other things to write songs about."
Is it maybe that you're consciously not wanting to revisit the 'London' theme now?
"No, it's not consciously not doing it, maybe for the album or two following it... I think if
I thought of a good song... I still want to write a song that has the words 'Hangar Lane Gyratory
System' in it, which is a notorious traffic blackspot in London. Isn't that great-sounding?"
In your notes on the Hefner website, you explain the whole process of recording 'Dead Media'. It
was a way of getting back to basics and making what you call 'private music', music not primarily
intended with the listener in mind. What made you want to strip it all back down again?
"I guess we thought that it was just perhaps not what you would expect, that people would
expect us to do the opposite. I think that progressively, through the three albums before, we were
becoming more and more bold, both in the size and scope of the songs that we were doing, but also
in the kind of production values we gave the songs and the instrumentation. I just thought that it
was perhaps a little bit obvious for the next album to bring the orchestra in. With British bands
there's a real stupid myth that that's a kind of semblance of quality. It's actually something that
Belle & Sebastian are guilty of..."
... Or perhaps Spiritualized.
"Spiritualized is an example, but I would still say that they have more musical merit than...
Embrace! Embrace are always going on about 'soul', and you feel that Embrace measure soul in the
amount of fiddle players on their record or the amount of gospel singers they put behind it, rather
than the way you might actually play something. It's quite a horrible tendency, actually, in British
music to have pretty, illiterate yobs with too much money and too many string sections going around
recording studios, waving their arms in the air, and talking about 'soul' and 'feel'."
Do you think that it might have to do with the fact that success is looked upon differently in
England than, say, in the US?
"I think that it's got everything to do with just the myth of rock'n'roll, these myths that you
should do something because you're almost told to. We did the Reading Festival a couple of weeks
ago, and we were on after Gay Dad. And I mean them no disrespect... Actually, I do. I mean them
disrespect! You just listen to it, and it's just quite a bizarre thing, watching and listening to a
band like that. You just feel that it isn't even the direct influence of, say, a Bowie record he's
listened to that's dictating him. It's almost like he's writing this idea of what he and probably a
few radio pluggers and perhaps a journalist from the NME think music should be. It's not like he sat
down with a guitar and thought, 'where will this song take me?' or 'how shall I emote this feeling.'
Do you understand what I mean by that?"
Do you think that it might have something to do with the fact that he [Cliff Jones of Gay Dad]
was a music journalist?
"Hmm... I think that Embrace particularly trouble me. I can't quite understand how you can t
hink it's good to be influenced by The Doors and The Who and The Beatles and The Clash anymore. I
think you've got a duty as a musician to burn those records and not listen to them and stop reading
MOJO. I actually think that it is your job not to listen to The Beatles anymore. Too many people
have already listened to them. Nobody new has to listen to them anymore."
Look forward instead of looking backward...
"You can still look backward. There are still dozens of records made in the 60s and 70s..."
Let's talk about Mouse On Mars and Plone for a bit. How did you start listening more to music
like that recently?
"It maybe came about a little bit through signing to Too Pure, because Mouse On Mars were on
Too Pure. Maybe that's how I became aware of them. It's quite interesting actually, because I've
only recently started to think about how, in a strange way, Too Pure might have influenced a lot of
my taste in a way that they probably didn't want to. 'Oh, we don't want you to use synthesizers.'
Ha! It was your fault! You gave me the Mouse On Mars record! I tell you who I like - and I'm a bit
late on this, because I think everyone else was talking about this a year or two ago - I just got
the Boards Of Canada album, and it's good. It's really good, just quite original. It's quite
unusual to hear something that you can't really say what it sounds like. We're not one of those
bands, I hasten to add. We're not a band that doesn't sound like anything else, but we're somewhere
in between. If you have Boards Of Canada here [holds out left hand] and you have Embrace here [holds
out right hand], we're in the middle."
Why did you decide to call it a day after two gigs with Stereo Morphofonium [Hayman's electronic
side project]?
"Well, actually the reason was that, Joelle, the other member was going back to New York. We
recorded, so the music's there, and maybe it will be released. It's not necessarily the best music
I've ever made, but it's quite interesting, and it certainly sounds nothing like Hefner. It was
quite interesting to find out what it was like to be in another band. I've been in Hefner for so
long. It was just interesting being in a band with someone who I disagreed with all of the time. The
decision-making process in Hefner is quite easy. But me and Joelle - Christ, it was just really
weird! I couldn't believe it. It was like, 'I think that should be an A.' - 'No, that should be an A
sharp.' 'I think that sound should be done on this keyboard.' - 'No, it should be done on that one.'
Presumably, it's like that for some bands, every little thing about it..."
Do you have a collaborative nature within Hefner?
"I think I do have a collaborative nature. I think we all have a collaborative nature, but I
think also that everyone would always defer to someone who seemed to think or feel something more
than you do. I remember specifically on 'Fidelity Wars'... It was the first time we'd had a brass
section; I was really excited about getting a brass section. I went home and sat at the piano and
got out my pen and paper and thought, 'right, this is Brian Wilson time. I'm going to score brass.'
So I spent days - about two days - on this brass piece, and the trumpet was going to do this, and
the trombone was going to do this... Then we got into the studio, and then John, the bass player,
said, 'well, why don't we just get the whole brass section to do one chord, to just go [sings] daa
de daa, all the way through this thing?' And I was like, 'shit! It's better!' I think that's the
way the collaboration tends to work. Everyone's humble enough to put their idea in the bin, not
necessarily if someone's idea is better, but if they feel it more than you do. If somebody's got
that spark in their eye and they're getting excited about doing something... If I think Jack
[Hayter, Hefner guitarist and violinist] should play guitar on a song, but he's busting to get his
violin out, it's perhaps better to let him get his violin out, even if I didn't want a violin on the
song. At least then the idea will have enthusiasm."
Many songs on 'Dead Media' seem to display a newfound maturity lyrically. You used to be
considered more of a voice for disaffected youth, whereas now the protagonists in the songs have
grown up.
"I don't know whether bands commonly have this, but I think that you can literally say this
now... You could literally sometimes look into the audience and quite honestly say, 'we are old
enough to be their fathers.' It's quite interesting seeing all the kids who used to be in the front
with the badges suddenly at the back with their cool DJ boyfriends. That's quite funny. I'm
interested whether Hefner can make the change, to be honest. On the first two albums, I think I was
largely singing about my adolescence, and I was largely singing about what it was to be in your
early 20s or late teens. Being confused about your girlfriend and not really understanding your
girlfriendŠ I don't mind that, and I don't mind the fact that those people get very excited and
emotional about singing along to those songs. But, of course, I don't want to write those songs
forever."
You don't want to be Mick Jagger.
"Yeah, exactly. It's funny, but that very example came up in the last interview on a similar
subject. I just don't think that I would be able to do that either. I think it would be much more
interesting for me to write about being 30 years old and having my new dog. No, that wouldn't be
more interesting. It's more interesting to me anyway... I'm kind of curious at the moment to see
what happens, and part of me thinks that the punters might not let us. I've seen it happen to other
bands. A band we used to be compared to quite a lot were Violent Femmes, and we toured with them. It
seemed strange, because it seemed like the audience just wouldn't let them not play those early
songs. I also felt that, with Gordon's [Gano, Violent Femmes singer, guitarist, and violinist]
songwriting, on every album he had to write more of those kind of songs to keep the whole thing
going. I guess you've got a decision, really - you can call it a day if that problem persists. A lot
of bands get around it, just by changing the name and changing the context of what they do."
Once again, you've recorded a lot more tracks than those that have made it on to the record.
"More than ever this time. I think the first album this happened. For 'Breaking God's Heart' I
think we did about 18 or 19 songs. We didn't on 'Fidelity Wars' and 'We love the City'. For those
two we pretty much just had the album written and knew, more or less, what the album was going to
be. We went in, and we had maybe just one or two left over. This time, it was quite like 'Breaking
God's Heart'. Actually, I found it quite confusing this time. I think that at the end of the
project I found it very hard to try and work out what songs should go on the record, and I'm still
not particularly sure that I got it right."
Does the fact that you recorded more songs again possibly have to do with the 'back-to-basics'
work ethic of this record?
"I don't know why it was. I think that songs were coming from more different directions,
because we changed a few things by working at home and because we were using different
instrumentation. Songs happened in lots of different ways. One song might start with a drum machine;
one song might sound like a certain acoustic I found in the room... The songs came in different
ways. Also, the songs were thought of more in terms of sound. This album, for me, isn't
predominantly about the lyrics so much. Sometimes the idea for a song is, 'I want to make a song
with this kind of sound.' Perhaps the lyrics might have been the last thing. I guess there were more
sources for songs, so perhaps that's why there were so many songs."
Were you going for more of a musical mood than in the past?
"Well, you know, to be honest, I don't think I knew what I was going for. I don't know if the
guys did. I think also, with 'Fidelity Wars' and 'We Love the City', I had a lyrical theme and idea.
This record has got a lyrical theme, and I think it's that theme that you said, about kind of
growing up. I don't think that I actually realized that that was the theme until the end. That's
what eventually helped me choose the songs in a way. It's quite likely that, on the next tour or
whenever all of the songs do get released, a Hefner fan's going to come up to me and say, 'God! Why
did you choose those for the album? These are much better.' All songs get released in this day and
age. That is the future of music. Every note that everybody played ever in the world will be
released eventually. My girlfriend really thinks it weird that we didn't put 'In Your Kitchen' on
it."
There's been a certain amount of negative reviews for the new album, in places like the NME.
People are finding it difficult to come to terms with your new sound. How much does this affect you
as a band when you go about making music?
"It affects us a little. It would be disingenuous to say that any criticism doesn't affect
you. I think that it's OK to get upset about criticism or to get upset about being misunderstood. I
think it's wrong to let it dictate how you make the next record. I think in the case of this record
there were several occasions during the album and often several occasions during a song where I
would perhaps turn to Jack or Jack would turn to me, and one of us would say, 'you know, if we're
going to do this idea, if we're going to do it this way, it means potentially that some of those
people who liked the last album aren't going to like it. If we did it this way, then perhaps they
would.' We know that there were those crossroads in the creative process, and we deliberately took
the left fork. I think we do well to remind ourselves that we were saying those things at the time,
and I'm quite proud of the fact that I'm in a band that can say things like that and can do things
like that and can say, 'well, perhaps the primary concern here isn't that more people like it.
Perhaps the primary concern is that the process is still interesting and that the process of making
records is still continually new and fresh to us.' There's no desire to fail in music anymore as
well. I had this idea for a book, and I won't write it... The idea is up for grabs. If you or anyone
reading this wants to do it, they can do it. I had an idea for a title of a book called 'The Second
Best Albums Ever Made'. What it would be is all your classic acts, but the albums where they kind of
screwed up and over-stretched themselves. I know what my three favourite albums are, and I think at
least two of them are examples of this. One is 'Holland' by The Beach Boys, which at the time wasn't
considered to be a complete success, because they didn't know what they were doing. Dennis [Wilson]
couldn't even drum, because he'd put his hands through a window. Another of my favourite albums is
'Tusk' [by Fleetwood Mac], which is probably the most overblown, cocaine-addled record. Once again,
it's an album where they're trying to follow up a huge one, in this case 'Rumours', but I think it's
way better than 'Rumours', because it fails, because there are too many songs on it. People say,
'you know, it would've been better as a single album.' No, it wouldn't! It's better because there
are too many songs! Nobody does that anymore."
What about 'Be Here Now' [Oasis]?
"Well, maybe. But that's still a failure because they're over-playing the formula. I like
seeing bands trip up. I like hearing my favourite bands do crap albums. I think it's more
interesting to hear what Brian Wilson does when he's not on form sometimes."
Have you heard the 'I Just Wasn't Made for These Times' album, where there's a song about making
a sandwich ['Still I Dream of It']?
"Ha! There are a couple of songs like that. There's a song called 'HELP is on the Way', and
he's talking about how you must eat your greens, you must eat vegetables. He's talking about how you
shouldn't eat burgers, and there's a great line where he goes, [sings] 'stomach pumps, enemas too /
that's what you'll get if you eat that way!' Have you got the album 'The Beach Boys Love You'?"
Yes, somewhere...
"That's fucking bizarre! 'Johnny Carson'... [sings] 'Johnny Carson / he sits behind his
microphone.' See, the thing is that there are too many Embraces and MOJO magazines reiterating the
same myths. There are too many people going, 'Oh wow, 'Pet Sounds'!' Well, 'Pet Sounds' is good, it
is, but does anybody need to be told it anymore? It's going to take quite a long time for 'The Beach
Boys Love You' to be reappraised! Have you got Dennis Wilson's 'Ocean Pacific Blue'?"
Nope. Not that one...
"A friend of mine gave me the vinyl copy of that. You know sometimes when you get a gift and it
kind of chokes you a bit? I have actually got quite a lot of his second album [the unreleased
'Bamboo'], because that's how sad I am! You can't possibly out-sad me on Beach Boys. You're getting
close; you're impressing me."
[The conversation quickly degenerates into an enthusiastic swap-meet for Beach Boys-related trivia and obscurities. Collecting ourselves briefly, we proceed...]
After a few listens of 'Dead Media', it quickly becomes apparent that the record is actually a
lot more 'Hefner' than you would first hear upon listening.
"I think we realized that as well. You sometimes go a round-about route to find out what it is
you truly are about. I think in our case that you get some drum machines, and it's fun; you make
these sounds. As we got further and further into the project, they still ultimately became these
little folk songs. I also sometimes think, in a strange sort of way, that it should have been our
debut album in a way. Some of the ways in which we approached it and the irreverence in the
recording process is perhaps something that you would normally associate with a debut album. That's
another thing that was in the back of my mind. Prior to recording the record, I had been listening
to some of our early tapes, and there were tapes for 'Breaking God's Heart', and it occurred to me
that there was something in that music that we hadn't really done. Even on tapes before 'Breaking
God's Heart' I would do little sonic bits between the songs. It's almost like I felt, listening
back, that I didn't feel the songs were interesting enough, so I had to wake everyone up between the
songs."
Hefnet.com is a pretty comprehensive website, and you regularly put your diaries up on the site.
How important is the communication between you and your listening audience, your fans, to you?
"It's quite important. I enjoy having the website, though sometimes I have doubts about the way
we do it. I think it sometimes tends to ghettoise us, and I think it sometimes seems to encourage a
type of fandom, which isn't always healthy. I try to put on there things that I would want The Beach
Boys to put on their website. If I was going to Dennis Wilson's website, what would I like to see?
What I'd love to see is an account of how he's doing the record, and I'd perhaps like to see a list
of the songs that he recorded. The reason I want to see that is because I'm a fucking Dennis Wilson
geek! I guess that's what it does: It just detracts the fucking rubberneckers. So sometimes I wonder
about it, because I just know now that I will be at some venue in England, and some guy will come
over to me and go, 'ah! When are you going to release this track?' And perhaps you should be
encouraging this person to go out and get laid, rather than staying in and listening to your
records."
So are Hefner a band that would easily preclude people from getting laid?
"Funnily enough, when people used to compare us to Belle & Sebastian, I always used to say,
'the main difference is that Hefner fans get laid more.' I think we do help people get laid, because
we've seen those fans come back, bringing their boyfriends and girlfriends. There's actually a
theory that somebody at the distribution company said to our record company, and it came back to
me. In England, the size of venues we play seems to be growing almost exponentially, in a way that
the record sales aren't. The record sales are getting bigger, but not quite at the rate of the
venues. Why is this? What can you deduce from this? Can you deduce that Hefner fans tape records
for their friends? So somebody at the distribution company said, 'what it is is that all of the
people that liked you have got boyfriends and girlfriends, so there are twice as many people coming
to the gigs.'"
Hefner artwork is always instantly recognizable. How important is the total packaging - music
plus art - to you?
"When I'm trying to put a record together I try to think about what I would like. I actually
took that to extremes on this new album. It opens up, and inside it lists every microphone used on
the album and what instrument it was used for. There you're thinking, 'ah well, Steve Albini did
that.' No! I also listed what cardoid pattern it was set to. I also wanted a journalist to say, 'you
know, you really shouldn't use a 414...' Then I'd just say, 'aha! Geek!"
It's sort of like the rap albums where they thank everybody, starting with 'God The Almighty'...
"What is that about?!! Bloody hell! TLC was one of those, that 'Fanmail' album... There were
like four pages. My girlfriend bought the Eve album. That's got about three or four pages of 'thank
you's. Haha... I was just thinking... It's Steve Albini again. On the back of 'Songs About Fucking'
[Big Black], it goes, 'Steve Albini uses and endorses heroin.' That was funny! Even at that time I
thought, 'that's really fucking funny!'"
http://www.kindamuzik.net/interview/hefner/hefner/880/
Meer Hefner op KindaMuzik: http://www.kindamuzik.net/artiest/hefner
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